Latex Wrist Seals

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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby dirchas » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:15 pm


A lot of people I know enter into a tertiary education without knowing exactly where they want to take it, and take opportunities and introductions as part of that course (much like specialties in Adv. O/W I guess) to guide them to their end goal. You could argue that a specific diving certification as well has a percieved value, not towards any particular gain, but as to personal safety and risk. You can get a job without a degree, just like you can enter a wreck without appropriate training.. both carry increased risk. One to your job, the other your health.

Just adding my peices in for healthy discussion :)


I used to be quite critical of the average LDS and PADI in general then I was politely reminded one day that I was appoaching the subject from the point of view of someone how was very pasionate about diving and preparred to take my training and skill level well past where Joe average would be comfortable.

With this in mind I'd have to say that PADI et al do an excellent job catering for mr and mrs smith who would like to look at the reef while in Fiji etc and that what I used to see as badge collecting and upselling is also avery effective way to get people to gradually increase their comfort zones and skill levels.

Whilst there are surely things that I don't agree with that the major agencies do, you have to admire the fact that they've built a successful system that spans the globe and has led to millions of people enjoying the underwater environment - even if that is for one dive every second year on a coral reef while on holiday.

Groups like GUE may introduce courses like REC 1 that cover supposed "flaws" in the way open water is currently taught but again you have to question the motivation of why someone wants to dive in the first place - I can hardly see Mr & Mrs Smith spending the time or a significant amount of money to learn to dive via GUE just so they can dive while on holiday (inspite of the fact that they would ultimately likely enjoy it more in the long run) Where you could easily see them do OW one year and AOW the following.

My only real bug bear with the industry was the tertiary training schemes that people got sucked into a few years back where multiple people paid huge amounts of money to qualify for jobs that never existed in the first place. As someone else pointed out the vast amount of equipment found on Trade me and repo auctions post that period clearly showed how successful the scheme was. In fact I actually new of one shop that was buying gear at Auction and re-selling it to the next batch of students at near full price.

Luckily the current economic environment has likely sent a lot of these businesses under and the dive industry is better for it in the long run.
If only life were as simple on the surface.....
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby water baby » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:31 am

Excuse the ignorance here. Going back on the thread a little, quite a few posts have mentioned BSAC vs PADI frameworks. Are there any BSAC clubs in New Zealand (the BSAC website shows one in Auckland but the url doesn't work) and / or would its club format work here knowing that:

1- most people here get trained through commercial outfits over a few weekends rather than commit to months of training and practice,
2- most people don't need the support of a club to go diving because of close access to the sea, easy charter availability and in part of the country shore dives (and shops cover some of that role).

Maybe some instructors out there who might be more comfortable in that environment don't have the option of joining a BSAC club?
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby binklebonk » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:42 am

water baby wrote:Excuse the ignorance here. Going back on the thread a little, quite a few posts have mentioned BSAC vs PADI frameworks. Are there any BSAC clubs in New Zealand (the BSAC website shows one in Auckland but the url doesn't work) and / or would its club format work here knowing that:

1- most people here get trained through commercial outfits over a few weekends rather than commit to months of training and practice,
The BSAC model certainly isn't something that suits all tastes but in my experience of talking to people who have experienced both it does seem to offer more longterm for less cost and for many involved more reward.
2- most people don't need the support of a club to go diving because of close access to the sea, easy charter availability and in part of the country shore dives (and shops cover some of that role).
Setting up a club based around participation, cost based training and trips isn't so much about folk needing the support of a club to go diving, it is more about the increased opportunity and scope that such a club can provide given enough encouragement. A large group co-operating can achieve much more, for less, than individuals and small groups chartering independently.

Maybe some instructors out there who might be more comfortable in that environment don't have the option of joining a BSAC club?
The BSAC club in Auckland is only getting off the ground so yeah unless clubs are established there is no chance of instructors having that choice.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:13 pm

guru wrote:A lot of people I know enter into a tertiary education without knowing exactly where they want to take it, and take opportunities and introductions as part of that course (much like specialties in Adv. O/W I guess) to guide them to their end goal.



Sure, but there's a general perception in the public that it's "good to have a degree", so whilst a student may not exactly know what papers they want to do or what they want to do once they've got the degree....

If we said:

Diploma = OW
Degree = AOW

You can hardly move for Diploma level students trying to staircase onto a Degree programme, whereas so many OW divers never do an AOW course. There is considerable value in doing an AOW course, but the public perception is that there isn't - there are so many horror stories on Scubaboard about poor teaching, lack of value etc. So the greater the perception of "lack of value" the more overt you have to be at "selling" the next course.

I think it's inevitable that we think in this way due to our essentially feudal heritage. Everything we do is "layered".... our jobs are give titles, junior software developer, software developer, senior software developer, software architect.... our entire culture is built upon getting people to aspire to the next level (personally, I blame Aristotle - but that is another conversation!). So I don't think that we should expect much different from diving education in terms of creating aspirations to 'do the next thing'


dirchas wrote:I used to be quite critical of the average LDS and PADI in general then I was politely reminded one day that I was appoaching the subject from the point of view of someone how was very pasionate about diving and preparred to take my training and skill level well past where Joe average would be comfortable.


Yeah, sometimes you can't ever convince someone of the end result, they won't take the shortcut - they have to walk the whole journey to reach the same conclusion as you already know.


water baby wrote:Excuse the ignorance here. Going back on the thread a little, quite a few posts have mentioned BSAC vs PADI frameworks. Are there any BSAC clubs in New Zealand (the BSAC website shows one in Auckland but the url doesn't work) and / or would its club format work here knowing that:


I think there is one BSAC club, but it's newly started and is probably having a few teething problems.


1- most people here get trained through commercial outfits over a few weekends rather than commit to months of training and practice,


Part of the reason for this is that UK diving is just hardcore - cold, poor vis, strong currents... and winter can put a kybosh on many people getting out at all. The length of time that BSAC spends training it's divers does make them much better prepared for those conditions.

The PADI approach - which allows you to learn to dive in just three days - is really much more suited to resort locations, the drivers are quick turnaround and "good enough" training for the conditions.

In my view, NZ is somewhere between the two - the BSAC approach would have a real benefit in terms of preparing people to be independent divers, but the value is hard to realise because the diving can be so accessible.

To be fair, most dive shops in NZ do more than minimum level training and are sitting in the middle ground - there is only one shop I know of that actually does the three day course. You can spend more time on PADI courses, but the way the standards are all written and the way that PADI instructors are taught doesn't encourage anyone to go beyond minimums.


2- most people don't need the support of a club to go diving because of close access to the sea, easy charter availability and in part of the country shore dives (and shops cover some of that role).


Agreed, but there is the social element - when climbers get together, they love to talk climbing.... and divers get together..... there's something quite nice about sitting around with a pint, spinning yarns about your latest dive adventure.


Maybe some instructors out there who might be more comfortable in that environment don't have the option of joining a BSAC club?


Though there is the opportunity to start one - BSAC would love to have more clubs here. It's a fairly well defined process, and the support you would get from BSAC in that process would make it go easy. There are BSAC Instructor Trainers in the country, which makes the whole club based training very feasible.
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