Latex Wrist Seals

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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby ChuckyBob » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:03 pm

I dont know but my feeling is that retention would be alot higher if training was done at a club level along the lines of BSAC.

You would get to use rental equipment at reasonable prices until you truly understood what equipment is right for you.
You would get good training with on going mentoring and you have the on going support of fellow divers.

I dont think comparing the retention rate of OW vs GUE fundies is a fair one. People who choose to do fundies do so because they know that want to continue diving.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:20 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:I dont know but my feeling is that retention would be alot higher if training was done at a club level along the lines of BSAC.


That may be true - but it also comes at an overhead in terms of running a club that is prepared to take that on.


You would get to use rental equipment at reasonable prices until you truly understood what equipment is right for you.
You would get good training with on going mentoring and you have the on going support of fellow divers.


Which, to be fair, is not the exclusive domain of clubs. This could be achieved by a dive shop if they so chose.

I dont think comparing the retention rate of OW vs GUE fundies is a fair one. People who choose to do fundies do so because they know that want to continue diving.


Rec 1 isn't Fundies, Rec 1 is the GUE "open water" course. So it is a fair (but biased) comparison.

It's biased in the sense that Rec 1 is roughly the equivalent of OW, Drysuit, AOW, Nitrox & Rescue, which is roughly the same as the Scripps courses. So retention tends to be higher for those courses because they attract people who are prepared to invest in their diving from day 1.

The first GUE Rec 1 was a good story, it ran in Sweden and took something like 3 or 4 months for the course to complete.... because they were struggling to find "ice free dive sites". That's pretty hardcore, anyone who is willing to learn to dive in Sweden in winter is going to probably carry on diving!! :lol:
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby ChuckyBob » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:36 pm

Point taken about rec 1. My bad for reading to quickly.

But the gear rental from club vs shop. The shop will be looking to make a profit from the rental ( nothing wrong with that) while the club will only be looking at covering the costs. In addition they may even get funding from local council or lottery grants for rental kit which would push costs right down.

The question of can such a club be set up and run in such a matter is a different question. Given the right people the answer is yes of course. But its not easy.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:46 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:The question of can such a club be set up and run in such a matter is a different question. Given the right people the answer is yes of course. But its not easy.


It never will be easy.... :roll:

Part of the issue, for example, is maintaining the enthusiasm for the doing the same stuff over and over again! Some BSAC instructors I know are pretty bitter about their involvement in their clubs, they end up teaching all the time (and don't get paid), even when they get to go on trips they are often mentoring other divers and so don't do the dives they want to do.

Running a club should really be seen as any other job in the dive industry - you have to make time for your own diving else you'll get stale and/or bitter. I don't envy you, at least I get paid for diving with muppets!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby binklebonk » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:57 pm

Andy wrote: Some BSAC instructors I know are pretty bitter about their involvement in their clubs, they end up teaching all the time (and don't get paid), even when they get to go on trips they are often mentoring other divers and so don't do the dives they want to do.

Well at least those BSAC instructors probably got a cost only instructor training... I've heard tales of unprofessional instructors volunteering for shops, having forked out large on instructor training..

Of course if I were a professional instructor it'd be hard to not view that sort of thing as anything other than scabbing.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:42 pm

binklebonk wrote:Of course if I were a professional instructor it'd be hard to not view that sort of thing as anything other than scabbing.



Ah, well...... it doesn't bother me too much. It's a fact of life that many dive instructors in this world work for free, or for the priviege of the lifestyle. It's really up to them if they want to absorb the costs of their profession for someone else's benefit.

For me? Well, it costs me over $1000 a year just to be an instructor (PADI costs, TDI costs, insurance, CoC)... I can't afford ti absorb tthat cost for someone else. I don't apologise to my students, it's cost me a lot to become and instructor and I still pay for that privilege. So every course I teach has a a percentage of that built into the course costs.

At the end of the day, what I charge myself out whilst teaching is still less than you;d pay for a plumber.... one day, one day.... we will value the abilty to not kill someone underwater somewhat more highly than ithe ability to fix a leaking water pipe. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby ChuckyBob » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 am

To be fair Andy, a plumbers apprenticeship takes longer than a instructors training.

I cant understand the instructing for free thing at all. With such high costs getting the rating and keeping it, not to mention the money others are making from your work why do it?
One thing you can say about volunteer instructors is that they are keen and will be instructing because they want to. Unlike some paid instructors.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:29 am

ChuckyBob wrote:To be fair Andy, a plumbers apprenticeship takes longer than a instructors training.


It does. But then my engineers apprenticeship was three years - most of which was full of pranks like "Go and ask Kevin for a long weight (sic. wait) to I can straighten this out".... or "that won't work, you'll need a left handed hammer". :lol:

Whilst the PADI instructor course is only 7-10 days, that is 7-10 days on top of DM, Rescue etc etc. Which you could do in six months, though for most instructors it takes 1-2 years in total, plus a significant investment to do it.


I cant understand the instructing for free thing at all. With such high costs getting the rating and keeping it, not to mention the money others are making from your work why do it?
One thing you can say about volunteer instructors is that they are keen and will be instructing because they want to. Unlike some paid instructors.


I don't really understand it either. I've done the odd free course here and there, for mates or because there was a useful need for it.... for example, before I started my TDI instructor course I was 1 deep certification short for the pre-reqs (I don't teach PADI Deep by choice), so I did a course for someone at cost because it enabled me to then do the TDI course. The "value" to me was much higher than the "worth" of my time. The student still paid for my boat fees for a day, so it didn't cost me anything to do.... but it was very much the exception to the rule.

I guess that is part of the mentality.... the "value" in the experience of teaching is worth more to people than their time is worth? This is certainly true in some areas of the Asia-Pacific region that pump out instructors like there is no tomorrow and guarantee them a job afterwards.... though the job isn't paid, it's "to get your 25 certs so you can do your bonus MSDT prep with us".

I guess my experiences with BSAC clubs in the UK is not much different from my experiences here. There are instructors who are enthusiastic, and there are instructors who don't give a sh!t. I'd say the ratios of the two in both paid and volunteer instructing is about the same - the ones who are enthusiastic tend to be those who go diving, as opposed to those that just teach diving. It's one of the reasons why I always suggest that potential students talk to their instructors before doing a course - ask them questions about when they dive, what type of diving they do, what kit they use etc etc. I'm more than happy to talk about how/what/why I dive... and I'm more than happy for a potential student to go elsewhere if there is a better fit for them.

... to be honest, a year or so ago I had pretty much reached my threshold of teaching OW courses. Rather than become bitter about it, I decided to just stop doing it and teach what I really enjoy teaching, which is all about the way I dive personally. Instructors who don't charge for their time is one thing, but what pulls my chain is instructors who teach one thing and then dive another way. Snorkels are one mundane example, why only wear a snorkel when you are teaching and take it off as soon as the course has finished? There are other examples, for example CCR instructors who teach courses on 10 different units, but only dive one of them.

After my time off from teaching OW, I'm actually starting to miss it a bit. There are some plans afoot that will involve teaching some OW courses later this year, which will be taught in BP/W, with a long hose, with no kneeling on the bottom. I'm quite looking forward to it because I'll be teaching what I dive. :D


Anyway, about them latex wrist seals...... :roll:
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Cameron_R » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:36 am

Pete wrote::roll: I'm over it. I teach for free, I don't care about the money, I care about the quality of the teaching and hopefully inspiring my students to dive after their course. :roll:



Hi Pete,

This is interesting! I can understand you not caring about the money, but your students are still paying someone.
So are you happy for your students to pay a reasonable/significant/whatever amount of money to a shop, and for that shop to make a profit, and then for you not to get anything for your time? The shop seems to be taking money and doing nothing except acting as a booking agency - or am I missing something?

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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:19 am

Pete wrote::roll: I'm over it. I teach for free, I don't care about the money, I care about the quality of the teaching and hopefully inspiring my students to dive after their course. :roll:


My suggestion would be to cross over to something like BSAC, Pete.

PADI is an agency that is designed to make money. I expect that you will always feel a disconnect between what you do and how you are constrained to do it. Teaching PADI courses for free will be like an atheist going to church.

In my experience, my students who have dived the most and got the most out of their diving are those that have been willing to invest in their diving. Free, or cheap courses attract people on a promise - but when they realise the true cost of diving, they lose interest and drop away.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Cameron_R » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:45 am

Pete wrote:if it were as bad as its being painted then there wouldn't be so many people there. There has to be more to the dive community that just self serving or profit motives...


Hey Pete,

I don't think anyone is trying to paint it badly - we might not understand or feel the same way, but that's entirely different. I am finding it incredibly interesting to hear such different points of view.

And I don't think that making a profit makes anyone self serving either. To some people it's a business - enjoying your work is no crime.

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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:23 pm

Pete wrote:I don't see why I can't just teach they way I do? Whether its BSAC, NAUI, PADI or any other agency - why is in inappropraite to concentrate on quality teaching and not focus on the profit? I just don't get why you have to make money? Why can't it be about the diving?


That's ultimately your decision, Pete. I just don't think it will make you happy teaching PADI, that's all.

You also misunderstand my viewpoint. It isn't about profit, it's about value. There is a distinct difference between the two.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:58 pm

Pete wrote:Yeah, value is most important and that would vary from instructor to instructor I would think. Those that just want to get money or strut will give much less value than those who work hard on the teaching and getting the students to a level of competence - that certainly will increase value.


That is certainly one point of view.

The other is that if you want to bring students up to a level of competence then it takes more time. You may be in the privileged position that you can afford to give your time away - unfortunately, I am not. Every hour that I am teaching takes me away from my family, something I value dearly. People need to value my time as much as I do.

And that's just time. I also am in no position to maintain my instructor rating unless I can at least cover direct costs. $300 to PADI each year, much the same for TDI, liability insurance, CoC costs (you are CoC'd, right? OSH have recently won a case that sets a precedent that experience is reward, therefore volunteer instructors are classed as occupational and therefore need a CoC).... wear and tear on my diving equipment, mandatory staff instructor updates... the list goes on. You may earn enough in your day job to write that stuff off, unfortunately I don't. And neither do people who instruct for a living earning next to the minimum wage.
Last edited by Andy on Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby binklebonk » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:37 pm

Andy wrote: You may earn enough in your day job to write that stuff off, unfortunately I don't. And neither do people who instruct for a living earning next to the minimum wage.

Exactly the point I was going to make Andy, except you have done it without being offensive.. Some day I'll learn that skill...
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:52 pm

binklebonk wrote:Exactly the point I was going to make Andy, except you have done it without being offensive.. Some day I'll learn that skill...



Some day.... well, some day the sun will have expanded so much and the Earth's orbited decayed so much... that our planet will be engulfed in a fiery doom.

It's not that I'm holding my breath, Rob.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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