Latex Wrist Seals

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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Paul » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:58 pm

NEMES1S wrote:he is the absolute exception to the rule...I know no other instructor that bears the same cross


I do think that is devaluing an awful lot of really good work that alot of unpaid instructors do around the country.

At no point has this discussion been about any individual instructors quality of instruction and I wouldn't like to see it head that way.

I don't quite know what you mean about bearing a cross... that to me implies bearing a great burden.... I though the point of view was that that some Instructors work for free because they enjoy it... seeing it as carrying a cross certainly wouldn't fit that view surly... Must admit I'm skimming here and may have missed something.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby NEMES1S » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:08 pm

Paul wrote:
At no point has this discussion been about any individual instructors quality of instruction and I wouldn't like to see it head that way.

I don't quite know what you mean about bearing a cross... that to me implies bearing a great burden.... I though the point of view was that that some Instructors work for free because they enjoy it... seeing it as carrying a cross certainly wouldn't fit that view surly... Must admit I'm skimming here and may have missed something.

Ok now unless I have missed something here I and from what I have read the fact that Pete doesn't receive money for his instruction has been a very pivotal point in this discussion...

Also the fact that those instructors that don't receive payment are in fact "Un-professional"
And the shit and politics that Pete does get in general is definitely a cross he bears because of his particular outlook he has towards training...
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby ChuckyBob » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:16 pm

NEMES1S wrote:And the shit and politics that Pete does get in general is definitely a cross he bears because of his particular outlook he has towards training...


Can you please elaborate on this?
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby NEMES1S » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:20 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:
NEMES1S wrote:And the shit and politics that Pete does get in general is definitely a cross he bears because of his particular outlook he has towards training...


Can you please elaborate on this?

I am more than happy to elaborate on this Greg just we will do it via PMs or on the phone when the new light arrives,there is a lot of shop politics and shop competition that goes on and in an open forum its not the place to really go into depth.

And as Paul has said lets not focus on the one...rather the many...
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Paul » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:25 pm

Ok now unless I have missed something here I and from what I have read the fact that Pete doesn't receive money for his instruction has been a very pivotal point in this discussion...


I didn't see it as personal at all. I understand the discussion to be one around getting paid for instruction vs working for free. Pete was putting forward his views/reasons why he does it. In fact there are hundreds (thousands?) of instructors around the country who are not being paid for what they do.

We really need to get away from seeing an opinion expressed that is different from the one we hold as being a personal attack.

Also the fact that those instructors that don't receive payment are in fact "Un-professional"


I do believe a few posts have clarified that Ameture in this context is defined as someone who doesn't get paid... and professional is someone who does. They are I believe the true meanings of those words. The first mention of "UN"professional was yours just there.
In this context... A professional is someone who gets paid to do the work that they are doing and not any other derogatory meanings.

And the shit and politics that Pete does get in general is definitely a cross he bears because of his particular outlook he has towards training...


Again... I really don't think this discussion needs to be about any particular person.

I am more than happy to elaborate on this Greg just we will do it via PMs or on the phone when the new light arrives,there is a lot of shop politics and shop competition that goes on and in an open forum its not the place to really go into depth.


To be fair Nem, it was you that introduced this element to the thread.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby NEMES1S » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:38 pm

Isn't the internet a funny place...

It all seems to be be about your own interpretation of what has been written,at the end of the day.

I will address this however:

binklebonk wrote:... I've heard tales of unprofessional instructors volunteering for shops, having forked out large on instructor training..
Of course if I were a professional instructor it'd be hard to not view that sort of thing as anything other than scabbing.


Un-professional... :wink: (so mine was not the first mention,and this regardless of whether Bink' was aiming this at us or not Pete and I and all the instructors and DMs at "certain dive facilities" all get a slap in the chops as we don't get paid (Volunteer) directly for the work we do there... :wink:

Anybody that wants to hear my opinion on that is also more than welcome to PM me as I am not prepared to discuss shop policy on this open forum..
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Paul » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:49 pm

Ah, your are correct. I when I read that comment I understood it as NON-professional rather than UN-professional.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby binklebonk » Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:50 pm

As I pointed out in a later post I do not mean the term amateur in the pejorative sense, likewise unprofessional. Although on reflection it is a word more leaning toward the pejorative.

This is a good discussion let's not derail it with implied meanings that may not be intended.

edit----Ok I just rechecked and it is certainly less likely to be in common usage as Non professional etc.... My whoops (only slightly) :D

edit part deux.. Ooops Just realised I had the dictionary in thesaurus mode when I checked.. It was giving Amateur as a synonym so that just makes it all the more tenuous..

Pete, if you took it to mean I thought your teaching was "below or contrary to the standards expected in a particular profession etc" then I'm sorry that was not my intent, from what I have heard your teaching is very good.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:44 pm

I'm going to wind this back a track or two, though not quite enough to talk about latex wrist seals.

Pete, a few pages back, you wrote this....

Pete wrote:I don't see why I can't just teach they way I do? Whether its BSAC, NAUI, PADI or any other agency - why is in inappropraite to concentrate on quality teaching and not focus on the profit?



So here is a question for you.

In the first pool session in a PADI OW course, there is a requirement for a student to meet this performance requirement:

Swim underwater with scuba equipment while maintaining control of both direction and depth, properly equalizing the ears and mask to accommodate depth changes.

which I always find strange.... we're asking a student to maintain control of depth, which requires mastery of buoyancy principles and the ability to maintain neutral buoyancy.


Unfortunately, mastery of neutral buoyancy doesn't come until the third pool session, where a student must:

Independently establish neutral buoyancy under water by pivoting on the fin tips, or, when appropriate, another point of contact (both oral and low-pressure inflation).

NB: requirement taken from PADI 2009 IM, in 2010 PADI have removed the requirement to pivot on fin tips


So a PADI instructor is in a real bind here.... to get a student to master the skills in CW1, they have to teach neutral buoyancy out of sequence.... which is a breach of standards. Or, they turn a blind eye to the performance requirement in CW1 and allow a student to progress to where they are allowed to teach neutral buoyancy...... which is a breach of standards.

What do you do? You really can't win, either way you are breaching PADI standards.

This is why I think something like BSAC will suit your teaching style and aspirations - it does allow you to focus entirely on quality, and make it all about the diving... without compromising your principles.

I (being the ultimate PADI geek) can find you at least 100 contradictions in PADI standards where a quality instructor is required to break standards if they wish to adhere to their principles and teach to the PADI standard....


The Greeks likened such dilemmas to the horns of a bull (OK, I read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance when I was in my teens just like everyone else my age).... choose to protect yourself from the left horn, and be impaled by the right. Choose to protect yourself from the right....

There are many ways to break this dilemma, for example to throw sand in the eyes of the bull. PADI standards are commercially driven... the ratios, the depths, the ages... everything has a commercial reason. My suggestion on crossing over to BSAC was to throw sand in the eyes of the bull. It frees you from the commercial aspect and make it all about the diving. I don't know what your NAUI status is any more, but from what I know NAUI would also be a good sand-in-the-eye..... NAUI standards let you move skills around, add extra skills.... heck, NAUI standards allow you to add your oewn Open Water final exam questions and deny certification to someone if they don't get that question right.

Imagine that, a final OW exam question..... "What is the flight speed of a fully laden sparrow?".. "what kind of sparrow? African or European?"... FAILED!!!

Just my late night ramblings.....
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby ChuckyBob » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:21 pm

Ramblings yes.

How could a paid instructor answer that better than a volunteer?
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:28 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:Ramblings yes.

How could a paid instructor answer that better than a volunteer?



I've kind of got off topic a little bit, Greg. Well, actually, a lot of topic.... not a latex wrist seal in sight.


It's more a case of how a BSAC instructor would answer it as opposed to a PADI instructor. Which is, they wouldn't give a sh!t because BSAC standards aren't as prescriptive.

Many people I know criticise PADI standards as being too much focused on the commercial aspects of diving as opposed to the quality aspects..... I have my own answers to this dilemma, but I pose the question to Pete because if he can't find an answer to this dilemma that he is comfortable with it reinforces my personal belief that he'd be much happier teaching BSAC than PADI.

As per the last few posts, no criticism of Pete intended in the above or previous post.... there is no "right" answer, I am just musing.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:30 am

Pete wrote:Its a good question and I will ring PADI and ask them what they mean by it - because if you are not careful you breach the standards and I think they need to clarify what the requirement is.



I'd certainly be interested in their answer.... :D

I think you are partly correct in terms of the intent, but hidden beneath that is the smell of money.... it's all to do with Discover Scubas, the relationship between CW1 and OW1 and the "dive today" philosophy. Very few agencies encourage divers to get into an open water environment so quickly with so little preparation. Yes, it may be driven by the desire to get people excited about diving.... but excited divers spend money. Suck them in on a DSD, and then upsell them the whole course.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby guru » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:15 pm

Wow, very interesting reading guys! Nice to see a discussion on an internet forum actually stay rather amicable for once :) (Not implying others on here don't, just the way of the internet in general :lol: )

A quick question I would like to throw into the mix.. Does PADI do any kind of auditing on their instructors? Or any other method of ensuring that students are taught 'to standard' ? Not being involved in the intstructing side as of yet I know I don't have the full picture :)

From a purely system based (not specific dive stores/instructors) that the PADI system is designed to up-sell and progress people through specific courses (e.g. DSD to O/W to Adv. O/W), but isn't this the standard design of any training institute (e.g. Certificate to Diploma to Degree to Post-Grad)?

Without the DSD, I don't know if I would have actually got involved in diving at all, but that's a hard case to sell as that if DSD didn't exist.. another introductory based system would be more well known / available in its place.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby Andy » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:31 pm

guru wrote:A quick question I would like to throw into the mix.. Does PADI do any kind of auditing on their instructors? Or any other method of ensuring that students are taught 'to standard' ? Not being involved in the intstructing side as of yet I know I don't have the full picture :)


Kind of - students are randomly selected for a survey when their certifications are processed. Like most surveys, response rate is low and the questions don't always reveal problems.

For example, the first four or five OW courses I taught I was making a fairly major mess up of one aspect of the course - when I realised what I was doing wrong, I phoned PADI and voluntarily submitted myself to their QA process. But the problem with my teaching wasn't picked up by the questionnaires. With the huge number of instructors in PADI, any system is going to be imperfect.


From a purely system based (not specific dive stores/instructors) that the PADI system is designed to up-sell and progress people through specific courses (e.g. DSD to O/W to Adv. O/W), but isn't this the standard design of any training institute (e.g. Certificate to Diploma to Degree to Post-Grad)?


Interesting question - I teach in tertiary education as well as diving, so I guess I have a view on that! Upselling from Diploma to Degree etc is perhaps a little less overt, but then most people going to college have a perception of where they want to be and are prepared to "get what they want" to get there. It's a really easy "upsell" from Certificate to Diploma, and Diploma to Degree. A degree has a perceived value to it (will help me get a job). It's a much harder job to convince degree students to do Honours, Masters or PhD. That end of the spectrum and diving have some similarities - you have to convince someone of the value of the additional training they will receive.
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Re: Latex Wrist Seals

Postby guru » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:42 pm

Andy wrote:but then most people going to college have a perception of where they want to be and are prepared to "get what they want" to get there. It's a really easy "upsell" from Certificate to Diploma, and Diploma to Degree. A degree has a perceived value to it (will help me get a job). It's a much harder job to convince degree students to do Honours, Masters or PhD. That end of the spectrum and diving have some similarities - you have to convince someone of the value of the additional training they will receive.


A lot of people I know enter into a tertiary education without knowing exactly where they want to take it, and take opportunities and introductions as part of that course (much like specialties in Adv. O/W I guess) to guide them to their end goal. You could argue that a specific diving certification as well has a percieved value, not towards any particular gain, but as to personal safety and risk. You can get a job without a degree, just like you can enter a wreck without appropriate training.. both carry increased risk. One to your job, the other your health.

Just adding my peices in for healthy discussion :)
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