Open Water Training, A Poll For Non Dive Professionals.

To discuss recreational diving, training, standards and continuing education.

Do you feel that your Open water Course adequately prepared you to go out and dive, in conditions similar to where your training was conducted, with another recent graduate?

Yes of course
1
4%
yes
10
42%
I want to say yes, but...
6
25%
I thought so until I undertook further training
3
13%
I don't know
0
No votes
No
3
13%
Not at all.
0
No votes
The course is seriously lacking and needs to be overhauled
1
4%
 
Total votes : 24

Postby petemes » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:09 am

JACK ON THE ROCKS wrote:I wanna say yes.... but....

Even with only four on the course, you feel like a sausage factory being churned through.

Its only after spending time in the water that I really felt comfortable, and only when I hit 20 odd dives that I really felt comfortable, especially with my breathing and air consumption.

A good tutor is everything, which is why I want to do my AOW for a little more tweaking and training!!!!


Hi Jack OTR,

Congratulations first of all for the successful completion of your open water course.
Just as an observation, how much did you pay for your open water course?

I absolutly agree with you saying a good tutor is everything, but would you be willing to pay for a good tutor? There are a lot of amazing educators out there, but in all honesty would you hunt for a well priced advanced course over doing some research and finding an instructor that would give you the most value for your buck? In interesting quandry......

glad you brought it up!

Dive safe and hope you enjoy your future training and more importantly of all, your future diving!!!
"A little less talk a little more action" Elvis Presley
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Postby Azza » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:55 am

petemes wrote:There are a lot of amazing educators out there, but in all honesty would you hunt for a well priced advanced course over doing some research and finding an instructor that would give you the most value for your buck?

This is a very good point Pete. Most people always choose cheap over quality...thats why the warehouse is so popular and Mr Tindall is so rich...
However most people wouldn't know what "good education" was. Thats the hard part I guess. The shops are so good at talking the talk that people think they are getting a good course
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Postby petemes » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:12 pm

Azza wrote:
petemes wrote:There are a lot of amazing educators out there, but in all honesty would you hunt for a well priced advanced course over doing some research and finding an instructor that would give you the most value for your buck?

This is a very good point Pete. Most people always choose cheap over quality...thats why the warehouse is so popular and Mr Tindall is so rich...
However most people wouldn't know what "good education" was. Thats the hard part I guess. The shops are so good at talking the talk that people think they are getting a good course


Yeah, I hear you mate. My voice has grown horse with saying it so much to stores that I have given up. Just shake my head when they put the store on the market and wonder why - WHY???????

pete
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Postby Azza » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:27 pm

I have forced myself to never again work for another store, but it is hard to compete with them when they run the courses so cheap. I think we worked out on my IDC that the OW course should sell for around $980...and that was shore diving in wellington...Crazy. I guess all we can do try to make a difference in our own small way...
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Postby andyinthebox » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:27 pm

sheez thats alot for an open water,the ones i dive master on are like $4-500 and $350 for school kids,that includes a weekend on a liveaboard boat.
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Postby Andy » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:47 pm

andyinthebox wrote:sheez thats alot for an open water,the ones i dive master on are like $4-500 and $350 for school kids,that includes a weekend on a liveaboard boat.


I think it was an exercise in calculating the true cost of a open water course, as opposed to what was being charged.

$500 is cheap. Too cheap. An OW course in the UK, for example, is closer to 500 UKP. Seeing as Pete's voice is a bit hoarse, I'll get on the soapbox....

Assume four divers on a course - too be honest, much more than that you are spending most of your time waiting for the instructor rather than actually learning anything.... so that's $1800 income.

5 days of instructor time at the below minimum wage that they get paid, $500.

2 days of a skipper for the OW weekend, $300.

PADI materials, $600.

That leaves $400 to cover building lease costs, boat maintainence costs, heating, electricity, petrol for the open water weekend (how much to fill a boat tank these days? $150?), air fills, compressor maintainence, tank hydro costs.... and you'll sson see that most dive shops are making a LOSS on open water courses.



If you work it back the other way, adding all the costs up then you'll come back with a figure not too far away from $1000.


A lot of divers now have a perception that diving should be "cheap" - and it's not the undervaluing of training that scares me.... it's the people getting a quote of $200 to service a regulater and deciding that it's "too expensive". It's a fundamental piece of life support equipment and people don't want to pay to keep it maintained??????
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Postby Azza » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:59 pm

Andy wrote:
andyinthebox wrote:sheez thats alot for an open water,the ones i dive master on are like $4-500 and $350 for school kids,that includes a weekend on a liveaboard boat.


I think it was an exercise in calculating the true cost of a open water course, as opposed to what was being charged.

Bingo
The courses are being sold at a loss to get people through the door to buy equipment...
Courses are often rushed and an instructor under pressure to complete all the students (Like everyone learns at the same rate-yeah right) within the alloted time frame. A PADI requirement for all skills on all course is that the students must attain mastery. You tell me how you can master a hover in your alloted "slot"...while everyone else is sitting on there knees waiting to show there skill.... The courses are a joke...plain and simple.
I charge $1200 for an OW course and I have a maximum of 2 students. I may stretch to 3 if its a family but no more( 4 if i get bribed and my wife will Divemaster for me-once again only for families tho).
I can assure you that my students will whip the big fat bottom of any factory LDS churnout, or no C Card at all. They will also be recommended equipment on what is truly best for them, not whatever the wholesaler is pushing this particular month, or what I have in excess stock.

However, due to Kiwi's being tight (and of course the fact that we have some of the lowest wages in the OECD and the government has screwed the economy over the last 6 years in what should have been golden years...But I digress) I dont teach OW often. I have had a couple through but they were mainly rich overseas tourists...
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Postby Martin-PK Divers » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:35 pm

Azza wrote:
Andy wrote:
andyinthebox wrote:sheez thats alot for an open water,the ones i dive master on are like $4-500 and $350 for school kids,that includes a weekend on a liveaboard boat.


I think it was an exercise in calculating the true cost of a open water course, as opposed to what was being charged.

Bingo
The courses are being sold at a loss to get people through the door to buy equipment...
Snip... A PADI requirement for all skills on all course is that the students must attain mastery. You tell me how you can master a hover in your alloted "slot"...while everyone else is sitting on there knees waiting to show there skill.... Snip.


'Master' a skill? When i had passed my open water, and i like to think that as i continued my diving and training i possibly took it a tad more seriously and tried harder than others on my course, i had not Mastered any skill whatsoever. I theoretically knew how to do it and had shown an instructor in shallow water once or twice but mastered? I don't feel i have mastered all my skills as a DMT but i'm pretty bloody sure i have demonstration quality skills. Mastery, no. I would need a lot more guidance, training and diving to achieve mastery.
Personally i would be happy to pay more for better training and i see it as an asset not a burden. You can get golf lessons from a friend who plays golf. This will teach you the basics of how to play golf. But if you want to take it further then you gotta get some pro coaching. This is how i see all sports. Anyone, within reason, can learn most sports easily and cheaply enough to entertain themselves. If you then want to take it further you get better training by better trainers. This in itself will cost more. Add on more specialised equipment to take advantage of the higher level of training and you have even more costs. Not to mention the Trainers themselves whom have to keep up to date with new techniques, styles and equipment fads.

In our modern world of mediocre acceptance and 'cheap is best' attitudes you are going to find that those who strive for perfection do so at a cost.
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Postby nathanbarlow » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:41 pm

I joined a club in the UK when i was 13ish, did my Club diver (equivalent to PADI OW but BSAC), which took me about 3 months of theory, emergency response pool training every wednesday and diving most weekends: in a 2m pool to start and then graduated to a lake and then on to the sea for one dive before doing the test in the sea. Total cost: the BSAC membership fee (
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Postby Azza » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:50 pm

Sorry to hear about such a terrible experience...unfortunately I have heard similar stories far too often...And we wonder why our retention rates are such crap for diving in NZ.

The problem is, if you speak out about incompetent instructors or poor courses then you are immediately labeled a shit stirrer/super diver or Internet diver and get accused of forcing your opinions down other peoples throats when you try to offer solutions or being threatened with a PADI QA (quality audit) by others in the industry.

Nathan, please don't feel that all PADI Instructors are like the muppet you had. You have the right to refuse to dive with any person you are not comfortable with.
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Postby nathanbarlow » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:04 pm

hey azza,
i realise not all instructors are like this, i'm just wary of spending good money on a course and getting practically nothing out of it, which is why i havent been back to PADI since.

Thats part of the reason I have decided to join SODS, as soon as I'm back in Auckland- i believe the club enviroment encourages more than just pay-per-dive/course, and so the instructors/advanced divers are more likely to invest more energy into it.. plus people who join a club in the first place tend to have that attitude anyways
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Postby Azza » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:13 pm

Good for you
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Postby Flipper » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:39 pm

Up until recently, pretty much all my diving has been with people I know to some level. Also the dive spots I tend to go to have
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Postby Andy » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:08 pm

[quote="nathanbarlow"]we had to do an octahedran shape with 50m sides and suppose to end up back at the shotline, where our instructor was waiting.


On an AOW navigation dive???? Sure it wasn't a square? Or was it two squares back-to-back with one of you doing one?


As Azza has said, not all PADI instructors are like this. Most PADI courses are quite good, but targeted at a different environment than BSAC or CMAS training. What lets PADI down is the number of instructors who can't actually deliver the course well.
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Re: Open Water Training, A Poll For Non Dive Professionals.

Postby Frosty » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:36 pm

I'm not --never claim to be an expert on dive training but in other aspect in my life I know what I respond best to when learning a new skill.
My padi instructor was fantastic. Basicly a total little hitler (drill sergent) in the water when practicing the stuff that was (is) important but when not "on duty" its all fun and games.
How this worked for me is that I felt at ease in the "relaxed" situation to ask about what I felt I was doing wrong without thinking he would jump down my throat.
Mind you the standard joke re the 300m swim caught me by suprise "Out ya get (of the boat) If ya make it to shore ya passed if ya don't ya haven't"
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