Taking artefacts

Most divers love 'em! Which ones, where, how deep?

Re: Taking artefacts

Postby ChuckyBob » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:01 pm

Im sorry DD but I see that as a double standard.
Its OK to take a one and only bell that was in a position many would have not seen but its not OK to take a plate that would be one of thousands? Most of which will be buried under silt and debris that also many would never see?

Personally I would much rather be able to see the bell in the engine room and perhaps give it a ring during a dive than for it to be kept in a museum that I would probably never visit. So where is it anyway?
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby ChuckyBob » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:09 pm

Someone did die on the Lermi. AFAIK his body has never been found.

Pete wrote:...... but where is the balance?

I dont know, I was told that fixed items were a no no while loose items were OK. I dont know if this has any legal standing.
Perhaps it should have something to do with the age of the wreck, perhaps if it was a grave that too should influence the rules.
I think justifing it by saying no one would have seen it where it was has no standing. The person who retrived it saw it. Who is to say others have not seen it before them or would have after?
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby Andy » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:19 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:I dont know, I was told that fixed items were a no no while loose items were OK. I dont know if this has any legal standing.


I've kind of ignored this thread - it's always going to be a difficult discussion.

I'm not sure "legal standing" has much to do with it, at the end of the day many people knowingly choose to break the law every day. Drawing parallels with marine reserves, people still fish in those when they think they won't get caught.

I think any guidance in the community that is "it's ok to take some things, but not others" is always going to be abused.

I'd suggest that the only acceptable behaviour is to leave everything exactly where it is. The days of the BSAC weightbelt are long gone, IMHO.
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby DiveDiva » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:29 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:Im sorry DD but I see that as a double standard.
Its OK to take a one and only bell that was in a position many would have not seen but its not OK to take a plate that would be one of thousands? Most of which will be buried under silt and debris that also many would never see?

Personally I would much rather be able to see the bell in the engine room and perhaps give it a ring during a dive than for it to be kept in a museum that I would probably never visit. So where is it anyway?


Not saying that. I'm saying that no items should be taken without the appropriate permission(s).

If the bell was well hidden, why not put it on display somewhere? If there was good access to it, then it should be left IMHO.
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby ChuckyBob » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:35 pm

Laws are laws. If you knowingly break them then you are knowingly going against the ethics of the community.
You can argue that the law is unjust or you are somehow above the law but the fact remains its law.
This is very different to a small group of people making a moral judgment and trying to enforce it upon others who may disagree with it.

Having said that I would hate to see laws introduced or enforced. The last thing we need is more laws and regulations. But I guess we will never get to a consensus of what is OK to take and what isnt.
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby ChuckyBob » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:49 pm

DiveDiva wrote:
If the bell was well hidden, why not put it on display somewhere? If there was good access to it, then it should be left IMHO.


Because it comes down to by whos definition it was well hidden. This is what I was trying to get at before.
Is it well hidden because its under the water? Because you have to do a little penetration to get to it? Because you need to do lots of penetration to get to it?

Items like this can become goals for divers to see, but if they are removed some of the incentive to venture past the ambient light zone is gone.
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby Andy » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:55 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:Laws are laws. If you knowingly break them then you are knowingly going against the ethics of the community.
You can argue that the law is unjust or you are somehow above the law but the fact remains its law.
This is very different to a small group of people making a moral judgment and trying to enforce it upon others who may disagree with it.


Not sure I communicated my point well, Greg. You could introduce laws to control the removal of artefacts (whatever the details of that law may be) but still people will choose to break it.

But I guess we will never get to a consensus of what is OK to take and what isnt.


Yes, which is why I'd suggest that it's not acceptable to take anything under any circumstances. I suspect that this would mostly disappoint the minority.
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby ChuckyBob » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:44 pm

Sure, people break laws every day. Does that mean we shouldnt have them?
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby binklebonk » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:16 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:Sure, people break laws every day. Does that mean we shouldnt have them?


No only the ones I break need to be gotten rid of.. :P But then illegality is part of the charm so I'd probably just have to increase immorality to offset.
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby Andy » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:21 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:Sure, people break laws every day. Does that mean we shouldnt have them?


That wasn't exactly my point - but then if you look at how some of the campaigns for road safety are tacking speeding etc, they have a very community focused approach.

If there were a law, and if it were ineffective... then making the removal of artefacts as unacceptable in the diving community may have more of an effect.
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby petemes » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:28 pm

ChuckyBob wrote:Laws are laws. If you knowingly break them then you are knowingly going against the ethics of the community.
You can argue that the law is unjust or you are somehow above the law but the fact remains its law.
This is very different to a small group of people making a moral judgment and trying to enforce it upon others who may disagree with it.

Having said that I would hate to see laws introduced or enforced. The last thing we need is more laws and regulations. But I guess we will never get to a consensus of what is OK to take and what isnt.


Wow Greg, good use of key words here, like ethics and moral judgment. It seems that (by your accounts) we all lack such qualities.

I remember once, a guy that voiced his gargantuan moral standards so loud that when he was actually found to be the person he actually was, he disappeared into the coromandel never to be seen again. There is something to be learned from this. All I am saying is that people who throw stones should not live in glass houses.

Everything that has been said about preservation of wrecks is right. I am the first to admit it. What must also be said is that what major stuff I have taken off wrecks (wow, lets add this up, 1 x bell off the Port Kembla to actually get full ID of the wreck we were diving.........ahhhhh and thats it!) I actually assisted in keeping the bell from the lermi from going to Oz and will end up in a museum in NZ) has ended up or going to end up in a museum. So in actual fact I am all in favour of absolute no take zones. Have been for a long time.

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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby Andy » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:59 pm

petemes wrote:So in actual fact I am all in favour of absolute no take zones. Have been for a long time.


I can remember you saying the same thing waaaay back when doing my wreck specialty instructor course, Pete.

To my mind, you either take all or nothing. I'm thinking of ships like the Mary Rose (http://www.maryrose.org/) when it comes to the former.
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby Jason » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:42 pm

To Take or not to Take - that is the Questions ("...its my Precioussssssss" :twisted: )

I think both are right and what do you do with two right answers??
Do you throw them in a Ring and watch them belt each other stupid (as has been the case sometimes in other Forums, if not this one?) and even knock each other out simultaneuosly via two right hooks ?
Or do you recognise both answers and formulate a Sliding Scale concerning each individual Wreck?
If its a recent, structurally safe, minimal deterioration of artifacts - Wreck, then chances are "Don't Take"!
If its a very old Wreck, looks in poor shape and so called 'artifacts' seem doomed to perish forever, then chances are "Take"!
Some Wrecks could be even 'grouped' and given a Umbrella Ruling as to how to be treated.

I would say that all Wreck Artifacts be placed in Museums that 'specialise' in Wrecks and other Aquatic Themes, but I think often of what happened to Ben Cropp of whom the Queensland Government deemed to be 'illegal' and bullied him out of his 'public' Museum-home.

In the end, a Dive Consortium must be created here in this part of the world, to represent this part of the world (as a leading example as surely as the world looks to this part of the world to lead upon this level) and reflect the interest of both expert and general opinion from all facets of Diving and other Aquatic themes. This Consortium is not a Political entity but must be powerful enough to have the 'Law'/Political Industry RESPECT its worth and its right to exist . Sure the 'Fees' might be high, but is there a 'higher price' to be paid for lack of a Consortium?

...until this happens - nothing happens.
Just drifting along with whatever is current.
Currently I'm reading : The Art of Innovation by Tom Kelley.
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby ChuckyBob » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:33 pm

petemes wrote:
Wow Greg, good use of key words here, like ethics and moral judgment. It seems that (by your accounts) we all lack such qualities.


Not at all Pete, all I said is that we all have different morals ( not saying that someone has better morals than others). And just because you choose not to take something it does not mean the next person will do the same.

You say its Ok to take it because it will be displayed in a museum.
Fred says its OK to take it because it will be displayed at his shop.
John says its OK because it will be displayed at his home.

In all 3 situations it will be seen by more people that if it was left at the bottom of the ocean.
Does that make it right?

Anyway as I asked before, where is the Lermi bell being displayed?
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Re: Taking artefacts

Postby petemes » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:13 am

The lermi bell is still being treated and will probably end up in Dargaville museum.
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