Wreck discussion...!

Most divers love 'em! Which ones, where, how deep?

Wreck discussion...!

Postby Drip » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:01 pm

Thanks Tony.
I would indeed dive the Lermie again, given the chance. Its one of those Dive Sites that offer 20 different dive experiences in one, much like the Poor Knights and I'm sure there are 18 other Dive Sites in NZ (Shebangabang) that I haven't touched upon. As much as the President Coolidge possibly pips the Lermie for the (rubber-necking) mass Tourism Divers because of its Tropical viz quality, I doubt it has as much to offer in regards to penetration dives for Techies.

I wonder what Mr Mesley would make his judgements upon if he was a Judge upon "So you think you can be a Wreck" talent show :?:
Would it be scorecarded upon...

1. Penetration(s) (1-10 difficulty)
2. Penetration(s) (Level of Diving needed)
3. Silt up (internal viz quality)
4. Viz (external viz quality)
5. Internal showcase (ie is it full of stuff to look at or just an empty shell of a dumped 'fabricated' Wreck??)
6. External showcase
7. How it is resting upon sea floor.
8. Size. (BIGGER the better?)
9. History or story behind the Wreck
10. Worth (was it stuffed full of valuble artifacts and bullion bars of gold!!)

I've only dived a small number of Wrecks, but I'm sure there is a Top 10 of Wrecks in Oceania or the Southern Hemisphere that can be up for consideration.
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby Drip » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:12 pm

binklebonk wrote:Keep in mind is that the wreck is not a static thing. Those doors that are hanging down on their hinges are waiting to drop. The metal that the hinges are made of are recycled balalaika strings and the dental fillings of Russian political prisoners. These have sat rusting for 25 years now..

Next time you go into the cinema have a look at the door that has fallen near the aft entrance. That's recent, and suggests that perhaps a single tank and nothing more is not enough to provide options should things get "sketchy".


Well I did hear/feel the Lermie say a good bye with a loud "moan" and a "boom boom" when we were ascending to the safety stop.

I don't think I would have penetrated the Wreck as I did if the 'Dive Fraternity' of NZ deemed it that only fully equipped/certified Techies are allowed via a strict Restriction rating and enforcement. But as there is none, then I just followed the call of the local experienced Guide that was running a Commercial enterprise for Recreational Diving.
Maybe things have changed Binks and maybe a Restriction is called for by 'all' Registered Divers that matter upon the matter in NZ :?:
Like I said before. First chance I had, I got the impression that it was strictly a/for Tech Divers with heaps of equipment and certs.
But having spoken to a few Techies since then, I was given the good impression that a Diver of my cert level, with single tank, is more than able to get a taste of the Lermie to some degree.
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby binklebonk » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:08 pm

Drip wrote:I don't think I would have penetrated the Wreck as I did if the 'Dive Fraternity' of NZ deemed it that only fully equipped/certified Techies are allowed via a strict Restriction rating and enforcement. But as there is none, then I just followed the call of the local experienced Guide that was running a Commercial enterprise for Recreational Diving.
What is this dive "fraternity" of which you speak? No one is going to say who can and can't enter the wreck, it's up to you. All I was saying is that given the scope of things that can occur in such a dynamic environment perhaps more is needed in the way of preperation. Please don't take this as a dig at you, I personally don't care what you do. I am surprised that a commercial outfit is running guided dives into areas such as the cinema with no more than standard OW gear.
Maybe things have changed Binks and maybe a Restriction is called for by 'all' Registered Divers that matter upon the matter in NZ :?:
Hell no!
Like I said before. First chance I had, I got the impression that it was strictly a/for Tech Divers with heaps of equipment and certs.
But having spoken to a few Techies since then, I was given the good impression that a Diver of my cert level, with single tank, is more than able to get a taste of the Lermie to some degree.


Heaps of equipment and certs has nothing to do with it anymore than the colour of your fins..

It is all about the PPPPPPs....
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby Drip » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:48 pm

Its ok, I can see where you are coming from (besides Welly on Googlearth) and I do agree in regards to Preparation. I guess then that you have to take it up with Ben regarding Guiding dives without Pony Bottles and into the Cinema.
Personally, I didn't see the big deal - it wasn't at all hard a moment within the Cinema, in fact I rmember it the most as I got to sit back a bit on what I was doing and 'enjoy the show'. But I also know I'm pretty 'spic' when it comes to a lot of things once in the water (except keeping pace with guys like Oskar 'Outboard' :| ) as if I know what to do before I am taught. The other two divers (on air) might agree with you and think otherwise that it was a hairy place to be in :?: with a single tank and no pony bottle.

I know a lot of accidents happen because of a lack of a Pony Bottle for a bail-out. But I still find that the entire Industry holds back from making it a mandatory appliance :?:
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby NEMES1S » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:04 pm

Drip wrote:
I know a lot of accidents happen because of a lack of a Pony Bottle for a bail-out. But I still find that the entire Industry holds back from making it a mandatory appliance :?:

I personally see it as my responsibility to have a bail out not the industry dude,whether a bunch of people that don't have a clue about diving say you must or not means little...its my life at risk and my buddies..

In fact in NZ even having a dive "License" isn't mandatory...I am 90% sure you can rock into a dive shop and buy dive gear and go diving without any qualifications at all...!!! :shock:
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby Drip » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:40 pm

I feel like I've just penetrated a woman without wearing a condom (Pony Bottle), let alone having bought her a few drinks (Certs) firstly.

...no wonder she moaned (Boom - Boom, lets go back to my room).
:roll:
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby ChuckyBob » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:02 pm

Jase are you suggesting its the industry's obligation to keep a diver safe instead of the divers obligation?

While on a dive with a instructor, DM or guide some of that obligation is on the instructor, DM or guide but ultimately its the diver who will pay the ultimate price should something go wrong.
What would have happened had a LP hose blown on your gear silting up the entire room leaving you with no air or clear exit point?
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby binklebonk » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:04 pm

Drip wrote:I feel like I've just penetrated a woman without wearing a condom (Pony Bottle), let alone having bought her a few drinks (Certs) firstly.
Hang on a minute, I'm just not following why you feel persecuted. Please don't I'm trying to criticise the situation not you.

1, You cannot exit the cinema easily whilst air sharing on a "standard" OW setup.
2, You cannot control the actions of those you dive with nor do you really have any idea of how they might react in a stressful situation when it's the first or second dive with them.
3, It's not a controlled "made nice" wreck.

So you went there and took advice from and dived with a guide that in hindsight is perhaps over extending the boundaries of "safe" dive practice. That doesn't make me think you're an idiot or <insert pejorative here>. I reckon that's perfectly normal behaviour as it's very typical to trust those who put themselves in positions of trust.

...no wonder she moaned (Boom - Boom, lets go back to my room).
:roll:


Ah.. no we established in the other thread about the huge torch why she might've moaned.. :lol:
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby Drip » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:16 am

"Ok.
So I shouldn't have dived the Lermontov without a bail-out system." [[in writing]]
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby binklebonk » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:10 am

Oh sure you could act like you've been hauled in front of the headmaster but we're all older than that right?

If you cant see the difference between having a nosey round the outside of a very substantial and potentially dangerous wreck on a single tank and going two rooms inside then you're a <insert pejorative here>.

Seems to be something about Lermy threads and throwing toys out of cots... :wink:

Might see if Nem will split this out of your trip report..
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby ChuckyBob » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:34 am

Its not just about having redundant air Jase, its about being prepared for as many eventualities as practical. That may include but not limited to redundant...
Lift, cutting devices, mask, gauges etc
Add to this training either from a decent course ( not like the SSI wreck course I did) or from working it out your self and mentors by taking small steps.
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Re: Jason verses the Lermontov

Postby Drip » Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:03 pm

hal_brain_room605.jpg

"Daisy ...Daisy. Howwwww does your garrrrrden grow..."

"I'm allllllll crazy..."

[[enter secret video tape broadcast]]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8
starring Drip and the emaculate BladeRunner Binklebonk.
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Re: Wreck discussion...!

Postby bluey » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:26 pm

I often find the philosophy of "redundancy for everything that could fail" hard to quantify. How likely does failure have to be before we carry a spare or stay at home?
I have just returned from crewing my neighbor's yacht to Vanuatu where I did a variety of dives from the yacht and finished with 4 guided dives on the Coolidge.
As many of you probably know some of the Coolidge dives are way outside recommended limits for recreational diving. I know a lot of people view the dives as madness.
I went over a variety of possible accident scenarios which could happen at those penetrations and depths and realized of course that with the preparation we had, they would likely end in disaster. Then I thought about the huge number of people doing those exact dives constantly and the brilliant safety record upheld by Alan Power Dive. I had also chatted to a medic in Port Vila who said that the Deco Chamber was vary rarely used.
Then I considered the risk of actually sailing to Vanuatu on a 42ft yacht (far more likely to go wrong in my opinion). I looked at the risks and the rewards and went for it. I had 4 fantastic dives on the wreck, a couple of which rate amongst the best dives of my life!

There are always safer ways to do things and if those options are within reach they should be taken. We all know that a modern Volvo is safer in the event of a car crash than your average SUV or Corolla. Should we wait till we have a Volvo before we go touring?

Some things are likely to go wrong and should be avoided but how much risk is too much?
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Re: Wreck discussion...!

Postby binklebonk » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:40 pm

bluey wrote:I often find the philosophy of "redundancy for everything that could fail" hard to quantify. How likely does failure have to be before we carry a spare or stay at home?
Well for me the only qualifier for it to be an absolute must for redundancy is how many times removed from the failure is the consequence (for this we'll call the consequence dead or badly bent).

Lost gas with no immediate access to the surface = dead. So therefore redundancy is a must.

The whole scope of what should be redundant has been hashed out many times and indeed I believe DIR has a big "thing" about it.. :wink:
I have just returned from crewing my neighbor's yacht to Vanuatu where I did a variety of dives from the yacht and finished with 4 guided dives on the Coolidge.
As many of you probably know some of the Coolidge dives are way outside recommended limits for recreational diving. I know a lot of people view the dives as madness.
I went over a variety of possible accident scenarios which could happen at those penetrations and depths and realized of course that with the preparation we had, they would likely end in disaster. Then I thought about the huge number of people doing those exact dives constantly and the brilliant safety record upheld by Alan Power Dive. I had also chatted to a medic in Port Vila who said that the Deco Chamber was vary rarely used.
Then I considered the risk of actually sailing to Vanuatu on a 42ft yacht (far more likely to go wrong in my opinion). I looked at the risks and the rewards and went for it. I had 4 fantastic dives on the wreck, a couple of which rate amongst the best dives of my life!

There are always safer ways to do things and if those options are within reach they should be taken. We all know that a modern Volvo is safer in the event of a car crash than your average SUV or Corolla. Should we wait till we have a Volvo before we go touring?

Some things are likely to go wrong and should be avoided but how much risk is too much?

It really is amazing how good the safety record on the Coolidge is. I guess it's down to the control that is exerted over the divers there and the standard of guiding?

Sounds like you had a great trip Bluey! Ya lucky SOD!
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